Trump Takes the Wheel? PBS Promotes Cassidy Hutchinson, No Fact Checks On Her Testimony

PBS NewsHour

9/27/23

7:21:20 p.m. (ET)

Amna Nawaz:

Cassidy Hutchinson made history last summer, delivering explosive testimony before the January 6 Committee. As a top aide to President Trump’s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, Hutchinson had a front-row seat to the final months of the Trump White House.

She details what it was like to break with Trump world in her new book, “Enough.”

I sat down with her earlier today.

Cassidy, thank you so much for joining us.

Cassidy Hutchinson, Former Aide to Mark Meadows: Thank you for having me.

Amna Nawaz: Your life changed dramatically over a year ago, and it has been over a year, but just big picture, how are you doing today?

Cassidy Hutchinson: I’m doing pretty well today.

I have spent the last year, 15 months-ish in pretty much very private.

 

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Cassidy Hutchinson: So, I sort of went off kind of overnight from living privately with my dog, George, to being on national television, which that was a little bit of an abrupt adjustment.

But I feel good about it, and I feel good about what we’re doing and what the larger conversation at hand too.

Amna Nawaz: Life in the White House, I think it’s fair to say, was a world away from where you grew up, right, a kid from Pennington, New Jersey, for a 20-something to suddenly be in the halls of power with some of the most powerful people.

You eventually join Mark Meadows’ team when he becomes chief of staff to then-President Trump. And you’re really — it’s fair to say you’re in the inner circle. And I wonder how that kind of contributed to your sense of this idea of loyalty we hear again and again.

Cassidy Hutchinson: I took the job in legislative affairs knowing that I wanted to pursue a career in public service and that my loyalty was to my country.

When I took the job with Mark Meadows, I still had that mind-set. I had that conversation with him, that my loyalty and my duty and obligations were to the office of the chief of staff, not Mark Meadows as an individual. And I still felt that loyalty, but I also felt it towards the principles that I served.

And that is a notion that’s expected in Trump world. And when you falter from that, you’re seen as somebody that you have a target on your back. You become subjected to either Donald Trump attacking you, or you get exiled from that world.

Amna Nawaz: It sounds like a really oppressive environment. Is that the right word?

Cassidy Hutchinson: In hindsight, looking back now, looking back now with the perspective that I have, I would say suffocating, in a way, because I found myself in a position where I was just in very staunch, just staunch disagreement for what happened on January 6.

And I was fairly vocal about that. Actually, I was very vocal about that after January 6. And — but I also still felt that lingering senses of loyalty to Donald Trump, to the administration. But I spent really a year-and-a-half overcoming that.

And that’s how I ultimately — and that’s really why I decided to write the book, is because I wanted people to understand that I didn’t just magically appear in that chair on June 20. And it wasn’t — and it’s not — I’m not saying this to be flattering or pat myself on the back. It’s not — a lot of this isn’t flattering for me.

And there are a lot of things looking back now that I have this perspective that I wish I had at the time. But I’m happy with where I’m at now.

 

Amna Nawaz: I mean, as you say, look, hindsight is 20/20, right?

But there are — you do touch on a number of times when you’re in the White House and you see things that give you pause. And you think, what’s going on here?

Like, the one that stuck out to me was Mark Meadows repeatedly burning documents in his office. You said, you would walk in to hand him lunch or something else. He always had a fire going. And you didn’t know what he was burning.

 

Did you ever think, I should tell someone about this?

Cassidy Hutchinson: In the moment, no.

Amna Nawaz: And why not?

Cassidy Hutchinson: On one hand, yes, it was abnormal. And, yes, I was aware that that was not what he should be doing.

But what I think it’s difficult for people to understand, and rightfully so, almost every moment of every day was sort of a hair-on-fire moment. So, I was going in there sometimes delivering him lunch, but I also had a list of things to talk to him about. So I would see this. I would know that there were things that were wrong.

It gave me an unsettling feeling. It caused me pause. The person that I would have talked to about that naturally would have been Mark Meadows, but, at that time, it wasn’t something that I was going to raise, because I also didn’t feel that I would either get an honest answer, or it wouldn’t be something that would be a productive conversation.

Amna Nawaz: You didn’t feel like it would go anywhere.

Cassidy Hutchinson: Mark Meadows was a grown man, and I had a job, and my job had a purpose, but my — the purpose of my job was not to police and control every single one of his actions.

Looking back now, should I have said something? Possibly. But would that have changed anything? I don’t know. But what I do know is, I came forward truthfully and honestly, and I have been candid and honest. I don’t know what those documents were.

But, bigger picture here too, these are the same people that are avoiding subpoenas or avoiding testifying. They’re also the same people that have all this information. I came forward with what I know, hopefully to give other people the opportunity to come forward with their stories and what they know.

Amna Nawaz: You have just gotten a subpoena to testify before the committee investigating January 6, and you can’t find or afford a lawyer at that point. So you end up relying on so-called Trump world to pay for one.

And until you free yourself from that lawyer, you’re basically told, the less you know, the better. But then you change your testimony when you get a new lawyer, right? Tell me about that. Why?

 

Cassidy Hutchinson: I ultimately — I spoke with hundreds of attorneys. I could not find someone that was willing to work pro bono or work out a reasonable cost structure, because I wasn’t working at the time. I was relying off of my savings account.

Then I was served as a subpoena, ultimately turned to Trump world. And I was very candid with Trump world about my situation. And I was desperate. Yes, I was given counsel that I followed in the first few interviews with the committee.

But I also knew, because I was on the inside, that there is a sense and an expectation of, when you take something from Donald Trump, in this case specifically legal counsel, there’s an expectation that you are also protecting somebody else. That somebody else is Donald Trump.

Amna Nawaz: You did vote for him before, right?

Cassidy Hutchinson: I did.

Amna Nawaz: If he’s the nominee again, would you vote for him?

Cassidy Hutchinson: I would not vote for Donald Trump in 2024. But I also do not want to sit here and catastrophize the scenario where he is actually the Republican nominee. I think it is the responsibility of all Americans right now to have a national conversation and to provoke difficult conversations about the dangers of Donald Trump as an individual. And what…