Trump suggested shooting protesters, missile strikes in Mexico, former defense

Mark Esper is a Washington insider who spent his whole career flying below the radar – until he became President Donald Trump’s second secretary of defense. A West Point graduate and paratrooper, Esper spent 10 years as a by-the-book Army officer. And when he left active duty, he moved through the revolving doors of think tank jobs, Capitol Hill & Pentagon staff positions, and defense lobbying. It all turned out to be boot camp for his assignment as defense secretary — and a face-off with Mr. Trump, whom he came to regard as a threat to American democracy. But we begin tonight with the former defense secretary’s thoughts on Russia’s war in Ukraine.

Norah O’Donnell: Overall, how would you grade President Biden and his administration’s– performance in terms of Ukraine?

Mark Esper: It’s mixed. They had a shaky start. I would’ve never taken the military option off the table, for example. I don’t understand the reluctance to provide– the Ukrainians with MiGs 

Norah O’Donnell: Fighter jets.

Mark Esper: Fighter jets, that’s right. But– since then, it’s picked up. I think we’re now flowing more supplies and material and weapons into Ukraine. I think they’ve done a good job of bringing the allies along, which is important. You– you have to act collectively. And you have to give some credit, by the way, to the Congress, which I think– you know, in the few– few issues that has unified Congress has been this one, support for Ukraine. And in some ways, they’ve led the administration. So it’s good to see now Congress and the Executive Branch– acting together, reasonably aligned, to help the Ukrainian people.

Tomorrow, May 9, marks an important day on the Russian calendar, victory in World War II.

Mark Esper: Well, I think the conventional wisdom right now seems to be that by May 9th– Putin is gonna try and secure Donbass, which would be– occupying the rest of the Donetsk and Luhansk provinces, if you will, and declare them protected. 

Norah O’Donnell: Is there any scenario where President Putin could take those regions and then just declare victory?

Mark Esper: Absolutely, absolutely.  I mean, if I were a betting man today, I’d say that is what he will do. He’ll at least secure the– all of Donbass, declare that he’s liberated the Russian-speaking peoples of that region, and declare victory. And that will become another frozen conflict. 

Mark Esper’s time as secretary of defense began when he was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate, 90-8, on July 23, 2019. Two days later, on a phone call with President Zelenskyy, Mr. Trump asked for a “favor” while he was holding up aid to Ukraine. The call ultimately led to his impeachment.  

Norah O’Donnell: You had to keep pressing President Trump to release $250 million in aid to Ukraine?

Mark Esper: Yes, it would be an argument after an argument. And I’d have to say, “Look, Mr. President, at the end of the day, Congress appropriated. It’s– it’s the law. We have to do it.” 

Esper writes in his new memoir, “A Sacred Oath,” that the Ukraine affair was an early source of tension between him and President Trump. That tension would grow, as he told us when we met him at his alma mater, West Point. 

Mark Esper: Because It’s important to our country, it’s important to the republic, the American people, that they understand what was going on in this very consequential period. The last year of the Trump administration. And to tell the story about things we prevented. Really bad things. Dangerous things that could have taken the country in– in a dark direction.

Norah O’Donnell: What kind of terrible things did you prevent?

Mark Esper: At various times– during the– certainly the last year of the administration, you know, folks in the White House are proposing to take military action against Venezuela. To– to– to strike Iran.  At one point, somebody propose we blockade Cuba. 

These ideas would happen– it seemed, every– every few weeks. Something like this would come up and we’d have to swat ’em down.

Norah O’Donnell: Who’s “we had to swat ’em down?”

Mark Esper: Well, mostly me. I had good support from– from General Mark Milley.

Mark Esper and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley ran the Army for over a year before finding themselves in charge at the Pentagon. in order to deal with what he calls some of the “crazy” ideas coming from the White House, Esper and Milley came up with a system. 

Mark Esper:  I come up with this idea. Actually, Mark Milley and I discuss it– what we call the “Four No’s”. The four things we had to prevent from happening between then and the election. And one was no strategic retreats, no unnecessary wars, no politi– politicization of the military, and no misuse of the military. And so, as we went through the next…